Thursday, May 10, 2007


Post-Post Millennialists
The falacy of the complete Millennium

The Germans have a word which describes most arm-chair theologians, especially where Eschatology is concerned: zeitgeist.

It means, The Spirit of the Times.

In this respect, each generation in Christendom has formed and re-formed its own respective Eschatological views.

But what is the true answer? How are we to know what is true, without being affected by the influences of our own generational near-sightedness?
One solid answer is to glean the truths of each preceding age. Dispensationalism, for instance, grew out of the heritage of Medieval Catholic Eschatology. The Protestant Reformation, however, marks a break with the Roman Catholic Church. And even though some of its theology continued to draw from Medieval thought, much of it was a return to Biblical theology, the area of Eschatology included.

The death of John Knox in 1572 set the stage for a shift in the development of English apocalyptic interpretation. During his last year, Knox preached a series of dynamic sermons at St. Andrews University on the prophecies of Daniel. James Melville, who was a student at that time, wrote: "he maid me sa to grew and tremble, that I could not hold a pen to wryt." From that point on, prophetic studies dominated the theological discussions at St. Andrews for decades to come.
However, while many of these circumstances may have far-reaching results in our own century, it would be - of a certainty - very far-fetched to assume that the direct result of Medieval and Puritan Eschatological studies is our own day's hyper-dispensationalism, or even our day's post-post millennialism.
In order to claim that a post-post's view of the millenium is legitimate because it had its inception in the Medieval ideologies of the seven dispensations, etc., one would have to also accept the whole system.
The first problem with this (for Protestants) is that it means re-aligning with a Catholic idealogy, which has long since been abandoned.

The second is that, since the system is built upon the Middle English idea of
"The World shall last sixe thousand yeeres;
Two thousand thereof shall be a vacuitie
Two thousand the Law shall continue;"
(Daniel Featley's Clavis Mystica by R. Bauckman, Tudor Apocalypse (Appleford: Courtenay Classics, 1978), 2-283.),
one has to also accept this thought to accept the rest. Becaus as many earlier (Catholic) theologians believed, the earth would only last for about 6,000 years. (Six days of creation / six thousand years of History.)
But the system is fouled up. It would have been convenient for those who lived pre-15 or 1600. For us, however, it is obvious that the Tudor Apocalypse is not the end, nor the beginning of the end.
Once again, this belief is a result of a generational near-sightedness, one which is proved incorrect when placed against the test of time. To truly understand the whole "dating system," take it ALL the way back to Christ, who said, "this generation shall not pass, until all these things have been fulfilled."

14 comments:

Ember said...

ok, i got this, but i have a friend, whose a MESSIANIC, and he blevs similar, but not from pre-tudor apocolypse, but post.
that the earth can be any number of years old before the messiah comes, but that the millenial reign alrdy took place.
what to say to ppl like that?

Anonymous said...

ALL OF THESE ISSUES ARE POINTLESS. BECAUSE THE INITIAL ASSUMPTIONS ARE WRONG.

White Badger said...

Great question!
I am not too familiar with Messianic Eschatology, nor with the idea of a Post-Tudor Apocolypse.
My Colleague and I are putting our heads together on this one, so we'll have a shout out about it coming up, keep your eyes open.

Admin said...

Well, let me see if i can take a stab at this...
As I understand it, we are speaking about the eschatological views of the Messianic Jews...? I find that there is no single eschatological position with wich all Messianic Jews are in agreement. From what I have seen, they are nearly as fractured as the rest of Christianity...
Some believe that the "Millennium" began immediately after the death of Christ, and it continues until His eventual return. Some are closer to what we would consider Pre-Millenialists.
So, it would help to know exactly what view you are speaking of.

Anonymous said...

hey, may be this will help xplain -most MESSIANICS think that all of the moedim basically hint at the messiah, so no study of endtimes can relaly be accurat without understanding jewish festivals in regards to prophecy. to them, passover, first fruits, and shavuot were completed in jesus's first coming, and the rest, like yom kippur, yom teruah and sukkot will be at his second.

all of that to say: this whole 6 thousand year old earth thing is similar to an idea that some MESSIANICS believe, which is that the earth will be 7 thousand years old. and that before the last judgment, there will be a messianic millennial sabbath kingdom.

Ember said...

no. that's not what im saying. im saying that he believes that the apocolypse came first (ad 70) and then the millenial reign, and THEN the time of satan set loose on teh earth, and that now nothing more has to be fulfilled. so we are just waiting.
he doesnt observe several major feasts, and not even the passover, but still calls himself MESSIANIC because he believes in jesus the messiah.
the question comes down to this:
HOW CAN WE BE GUARANTEED THAT ALL OF THIS HAS NOT TAKEN PLACE YET? HOW CAN WE KNOW THAT THE MILLENIAL REIGN AND "TRYING TIME" HAS NOT ALREADY HAPPENED?

WagnerLover said...

Each day of creation may be seen to correspond to a millennial day (1000 years) of the world. "One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" - 2 Peter 3:8-10 (relating specifically to the return of Messiah). Ancient rabbinic teaching proposes this relationship between creation week and the Sabbath Millennium of messianic reign. Not that I'm trying to suggest exact solar 1000 year blocks of time, nor dogmatically affirming a rabbinic dating system -- I suspect that we are closer to the end of the 6th millennium (AM 6000) than the rabbinic calendar indicates.

WagnerLover said...

Dispersion at Babel was approx. AM 2000 (AM 1996 by rabbinic calculation).
Crucifixion about AM 4000 (Approx AM 3795 by rabbinic count).
We are approaching AM 6000 (AM 5762 by rabbinic count).

On the first day, Light and Darkness were created; in the first millennium, Good and Evil appeared.
On the second day, the Waters were separated; in the second millennium, they were brought together in the Great Flood and separated again.
On the third day, Land and Vegetation appeared; in the third millennium, Canaan and abundant Crops were promised.
On the forth day, the Sun and Moon were set in place; they are a messianic sign, David starting the fourth millennium, and Yeshua finishing it.
The fifth and sixth millenniums are known as "the last days".
On the sixth day, beasts and man were created; in the end of the sixth millennium, the Beast and the Son-of-Man appear (Revelation).

The Erev Shabbat candles may be seen to represent the pyres of war of the tribulation preceeding the Great Sabbath,
the Havdallah candle turned upside down and extinguished in wine - the fire from heaven extinguished in blood after the Millennial Reign;
Torah forbids kindling a fire on the Sabbath, there will be no war during the Great Sabbath.

Note the pairing of days:
Light and Darkness were created on the first day, Sun and Moon (to control the Light and Darkness) on the fourth day;
Water and Atmosphere separated on the second day, Fish and Birds (that live therein) created on the fifth day;
Land and Vegetation created on the third day, Beasts and Man (that live thereon) on the sixth day.
Note: Vegetation, created on third day, did not sprout until sixth day, when beasts and man were created (Gen 2:5-9).

Admin said...

sounds like dispensationalism to me....

I'm a Semi-Amillennialist... isn't it fun... we just label ourselves as if our belief in a position somehow makes it more true....

White Badger said...

Silence!
Enough of thys debayte!
Heede these wordes:

PRETERISM.

Seeth thou howe it solveth the problemme?

Anonymous said...

whats a semi-ahmilleniallist?

White Badger said...

Yt is someonne who liketh the ideals of Amillennialism, but cannot decyde whether the Millennium be a thowsande yeers or else it be some other such tyme progression.
I jest, of course.

*winketh*

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